Thursday, March 19, 2015

Affirmative Action–Two Dirty Words that Should Have Their Place--Especially In Communities Like Ferguson, Missouri

In Ferguson, Missouri, the police force had 50 Caucasian police officers and only 3 African American Police Officers in a predominantly African American community. Many allege that this is one of the dynamics that led to the death of an unarmed young African American Michael Brown. Whether or not this is the case, it highlights a problem in many communities across America in their government's civil service workforces.

Principles:
1. Government is only as good as its service to the governed.

2. Governmental services should be disseminated impartially.

3. Majorities have a tendency, both subconsciously and consciously, to harbor biases against those they see as “others” or not “them.”

4. To avert the despotism of the majority, encourage creativity and innovation, and to foster freedom, a democracy must provide a safe harbor for diversity to thrive.

5. Due to the cultural, educational, economic, experiential, religious, and historical differences of various racial groups within a democracy–such groups are often better served by a civil service workforce that has the same or similar racial and cultural backgrounds.

6. To achieve the impartial and effective dissemination of governmental services, democratic communities should accommodate the racial, sexual, and cultural differences of its members by hiring a civil service workforce (police officers, fire fighters, public defenders, prosecutors, bureaucrats, teachers, etc.) that reflects the community’s diverse demographics. Hence, according to their proportional representation in our society, qualified applicants should be found to fill government civil service jobs.

7. All races of homo sapiens and both sexes have individuals who are capable of serving competently and reliably in all civil service workforce positions.

8. If qualified applicants that reflect a community’s diverse demographics cannot be found, it is not a failure of the particular race, sex or cultural group, it is the failure of our institutions to equip, train, and locate individuals representing all of our communities’ diversity with this capacity.

9. A diverse civil service workforce, not only is perceived to disseminate governmental services impartially, because of its collective pool of knowledge regarding the cultural, educational, economic, experiential, sexual, religious, and historical backgrounds of its community members, it is often more adept at disseminating governmental services both impartially and often more effectively.

10. Our democracy and market systems have engendered a vibrant economy with boundless opportunity. Therefore those who may otherwise qualify for a civil service job but who, due to affirmative action policies, may not have this opportunity, will nevertheless be able to find or create employment of equal, if not greater, economic merit in the private sector.
Conclusion:

Democracies should have aggressive affirmative action policies for its civil service workforces and in its educational institutions.

While this may not have averted the turmoil in Ferguson, Missouri, nor the death of Michael Brown, it may have. And while the lack of diversity in its police force should not be an excuse for violent behavior that is not justified by the known facts, nor by the rule of law that is the foundation of our democracy, it will avert many such other potential incidents all over our nation.
This is why in non-elected government civil-service positions and in educational institutions, I support aggressive affirmative actions plans.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 19, 2014
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Comments...
Jacob Dean- I dissent. Affirmative Action is smiley face racism.  August 19, 2014 at 11:37pm


Jacob Dean- Also, while still waiting for the whole picture, it looks more and more like the thing that would have prevented the events of Fergusen would have been for Mr Brown to not attack a police officer with enough force and violence to, as reports today say, blow out his orbital eye socket. Still waiting on verification and the whole picture on this but looking at events like this and seeing race issues is why the real, institutional race problem in this country is intellectually housed in the left.  August 20, 2014 at 7:54am


Loren M. Lambert- Perhaps. I completely oppose the mentality that cop + death of member of public = police brutality and the mobocracy that wants "justice now" whether its lynching a cop or a minority. Let the investigation move forward. On the other hand I think as a general rule sometimes cops are too hasty to act with aggression, when stepping back and diffusing the situation is the better act of valor.  August 20, 2014 at 8:30am

Sex and Government--Two Very Dirty Words

What do the words and the definitions of Government and Sex have in common? Both standing alone are dirty words defining dirty things to some conservative thinkers.

The mere mention of these words cause their brains to implode with IBS--Irritable Brain Syndrome--during which they cannot think or communicate because either their brains shut down due to cerebral constipation or their brains vomit a senseless stream of incoherent sentences and irrational ideas due to cognitive projectile diarrhea. During this state of mind it is impossible for them to rationally discuss these two "dirty words" and understand that Sex and Government depending on the circumstances, consent, preparation, size, innovation, utility, integrity, persons involved, commitment, follow through, and transition can be good, productive, fulfilling, and sometimes even praiseworthy.

Today, sadly many conservatives and republicans don't understand this, don't want to have a conversation, don't want to solve problems, and they really don't want small government. They want almost no government and while there at it, no sex. Because if they are too frustrated to have it, they think their misery deserves company.

But oddly while these same conservatives will trust government to be militarized to the nines, be the guardians of a large nuclear arsenal, and to intrude into every corner of our lives--the very means by which dictators impose totalitarian regimes.  They cower in abject infantility when moderates, some conservatives, Democrats, progressives, libertarians, pragmatists and others suggest that government be called on to propagate the continued viability of our planet.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 14, 2014
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Comments...
Jacob Dean: Oh give me a break.  August 15, 2014 at 3:52pm

The Blessing of Reprobate Principles

There are no private organizations, no corporations, no group of philanthropists, no charities, no clans, no critical mass of individuals toiling on their own big enough to save our oceans, preserve our forests, rescue our bio-diversity, or bring balance back to our climate other than government.

So whether you're a conservative, a Christian, a tea-party member, libertarian or anarchist, you can understand that for what it is and be a positive influence in the process or you can fight it to you and your childrens' detriment. And then, in so doing, forever be a byword and a curse upon the lips of the dying masses for having sealed our doom with the blessing of your reprobate principles.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 13, 2014
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              Comments...
Russell Josephson: In my personal opinion, this is the very doctrine that will bring the Anti-Christ to power as the head of a one-world government.

The fear of global catastrophe, and the perceived need of a single power to 'save' us all from it, will spur us to submit to a totalitarian dictatorship.

This false savior will call for 'shared sacrifice' by surrendering of our economic, political, religious and personal liberty in the name of 'saving the planet'...

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."  (New Testament | Revelation 13:16 - 17).  August 14, 2014 at 11:22am


Stevens Sandra: we have desert we can fill with solar panels and wind for windmills We dutch afteral dried up most of of our country and made new land and dried out suffolk for the British with our famous windmills.  August 14, 2014 at 6:42am


Terry Stone: Lol...  August 14, 2014 at 6:59am


Terry Stone: A jokester . Lol.....  August 14, 2014 at 6:59am


Stevens Sandr: OMG Russel lol i think i was marked when i was born.  August 14, 2014 at 7:04am


Loren M. Lambert: The God I know helps those who help themselves and the very apocalypse some (Russell) fear, is the self fulfilling prophesy that many of the religious or professed religious want to cause by their irresponsible and profligate living. The humble, meek and resourceful people that Christ embraced and still shepherds are those who live and lived simply. They bear no resemblance to the industrial rapiers that exist today who claim religiosity in order to manipulate and not liberate the modest of income, means and education.

I do not speak of the end of democracy and it is offensive that you accuse me of such. I speak of democratically resolving the time-bomb problems our world faces. Unman the podium of dogmatism and start becoming a part of the solution instead of remaining a part of the problem. It is the alleged religious in China, the Middle East and Africa, professing to act for God and Allah, who are raining death and destruction on all and are currently acting in a totalitarian fashion across the globe.  August 14, 2014 at 10:01am


Russell Josephson Hi Loren M. Lambert, I'm sorry that you find my post offensive, but I don't see any other way that the prophecy will be fulfilled. Once we democratically surrender our soveriegnty to the future one-world authority, we will not be able to retain our rights and privileges -- no matter how good the original intent or pretext was.
August 14, 2014 at 11:30am


Jacob Dean Another excellently written load of tripe  but to be fair Its been some time since I was surprised to find myself in disagreement with Loren. Great guy, but once again Loren: I dissent.
August 14, 2014 at 3:22pm


Terry Stone Lol....  August 14, 2014 at 5:44pm


Loren M. Lambert: Sometimes truth is hard to square with. As an example, what do the words and the definitions of Government and Sex have in common? Both standing alone are dirty words to some conservative thinkers because the mere mention of them cause their brains to implode with IBS--Irritable Brain Syndrome--during which they cannot think or communicate because either their brains shut down due to cerebral constipation, their testicles retract (in males), their mammary glands go into stasis (females) and their vocal box and cords tighten into useless or squeaky wrecks or their brains vomit a senseless stream of incoherent irrational words due to cognitive projectile diarrhea.

During this state of mind it is impossible for them to understand that Sex and Government can be productive, good, bad, mediocre, etc depending on consent, preparation, size, innovation, utility, who is involved, follow through and transition. But today, sadly many conservatives and republicans don't understand this and simply want to ensure that there is no government and no sex.
August 14, 2014 at 11:11pm


Stevens Sandra LOL good one Loren thumbs up.  August 15, 2014 at 8:17am


Terry Stone Our ego blinds us from the facts.  August 15, 2014 at 8:34am


Jacob Dean As an never married Mormon conservative male, and consequently a 34 year old virgin, I can categorically say that some of us want MORE sex, not less .
August 15, 2014 at 3:43pm


Terry Stone Jacob  more love the better . Right on
August 15, 2014 at 4:45pm


Loren M. Lambert @Jacob--you know me well enough to know when I use hyperbole to emphasize a point--so I'm just joking about the government and republicans--I know they really want big government--just big government for corporate America. (Oh yeah, and also sex, their are some conservatives that champion its responsible manifestations).
August 18, 2014 at 10:08am


Jacob Dean Lol - I completely agree with you when it comes to republicans, particularly those in DC... That's why I'm not one .
August 18, 2014 at 2:51am


Loren M. Lambert @Russell, I don't advocate a "one world authority." I do advocate cooperation and pragmatism. I also advocate a balance between municipal, state, federal and multinational cooperation.


My Cult of Incrementalism

I was taught that "by small and simple things are great things brought to pass; and small means in many instances doth confound the wise."

I believed it. It gave me hope. All I had to do was take small simple steps. I bought into it hook line and sinker.

I did my small little things. I lit my candle. I took that first bite. I paced out a dozen baby steps to take me clear over there. I earned a widows mite and gave my two cents. I started my thousand mile journey with a single step. I planted my tiny seeds, I sawed the wood in front of me, I set my tireless tortoise feet upon the path, and I put my shoulder to the wheel.

Then I stopped, paused, poked my head above the underbrush, looked around, and realized that I had brought a squirt gun to a 5 alarm fire, a pocket knife to a shock and awe war, and a pup tent to withstand the gales of a class 5 hurricane. I had become a cult of incrementalism.

The world calls for no small and simple things. It's too late for that. Do the small simple things to develop your soul but then rage into large and profound dreams so that great things are truly brought to pass that astound the stilted who think they are wise. Scream, storm, rattle the cages, rage against the machine and be the voice that cannot be ignored that cries among the multitudes.

Nothing, big enough to meet the challenges of our day, can be resolved, by following a cult of incrementalism that calls a teaspoon forth to help empty out the flood waters of our times.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 13 , 2014

Robin Williams

I'm generally not one to follow celebrities and be either overly affected by their personal lives or pretend that they have some corresponding bond with me, but I feel this connection to Robin, like he was someone I hung out with at some time and knew. I will miss him. I am saddened by his passing, and I think if such a vibrant shining talent can succumb to his demons then we all walk a thin line between sanity and desperation and we all are fragile souls in such need of the fellowship of those who can bouy us up and lighten our burdens.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 11, 2014



Comments...
Laurie Jan Bray Important sentiment , thanks for saying it.
August 11, 2014 at 11:16pm


Terry Stone Well said Sir
August 12, 2014 at 7:40am


Tawnie Bowers Beautifully said, Loren. I feel the same way. It's truly a wake-up call. It's strange how I feel as though I've lost a part of my own family, the amount of influence he had on me... he truly was an amazing man.
August 12, 2014 at 9:57am


Terry Stone A example for sure . The suicide rate for kids under 10 years old on the Indian reservations is also sad . Odd we don't ever hear of it .
August 12, 2014 at 10:02am


Greg Robbins Never been more sad about something than this, which is really wired.
August 13, 2014 at 11:50am

Common Ground May Get Uncomfortably Common

On Doug Fabrizio's Radio West journalist, Scott Carrier, commented after listening to the Cliven Bundy interview. He said that the country is divided about 50-50. One half who's decisions, philosophies, and political positions are based strictly upon their religious convictions. The other half who's positions are based upon scientific reasoning. He said the two sides are not talking to each other and that this could be a problem. Both view the other side as preposterous. He also commented on how the religious view the Constitution in dogmatic ways that brook no viewpoint contrary to their own.

Mr. Carrier gained his insight on this matter while producing an audio documentary that posed the question, "do you think that the world is coming to an end?" to those he interviewed. He said that both sides of this divide think that it is for different reasons and champion different remedies.

I asked my mentor, Herb Cowan-- large vegetable farmer and erstwhile rancher, and contemporary with Cliven Bundy, if he thought the world was doomed and what he thought about the self-proclaimed "Prophets" of the Constitution in their view that only the dead founding fathers, being inspired by God, knew what to do.

"It's a damn poor God that can only inspire a small handful of beer drinking, tricorn hatted colonialists and no others since then," he responded. "If things are going to hell, we'll all be to blame. And when they do, talking will break out all along the great divide when we're all forced to huddle hungry and scared on a quickly vanishing plot of common ground."
So why wait for that to happen?

I've never met anyone, including some very despicable and off the charts criminal defendants, who could not teach me something. I promise you there are good people on every side of a conflict. Reach out to them. We can stand on common ground today or be forced to when all hell breaks out and there's nothing left but some polluted tiny speck of common ground.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 9, 2014



Comments...

Loren M. Lambert: http://radiowest.kuer.org/.../cliven-bundys-spiritual-battle.  August 9, 2014 at 12:31pm


Terry Stone Good listen.  August 10, 2014 at 3:21pm

Cliven Bundy--Mormon Prophet for the Narrow Visioned

Nevadan self-proclaimed Mormon prophet says that to avert civil war we must break down the doors of our national parks and reclaim them as our own.

You see, the prairie dogs, coyotes, bison and wolf packs along with their turn coat and namby pamby traitorous federal rangers, and agents are all plotting to take away our constitutional rights.  To dispose of our garbage as we please and to shoot whatever we get a hankering to shoot.

As the Abraham Lincoln of land use policies, Mr. Bundy says a country divided into unspoiled, spoiled, polluted, unpolluted, developed and undeveloped land, and everything in between, cannot stand-- let alone piss on an open fire pit, but must all be equally ridden and eaten over by cows, cowboys, cars and caterpillars (the metal kind).

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/cliven-bundys-range-war

Loren M. Lambert
© August 6, 2014

Sapiens v. Arachnids

There are approximately 40,000 spiders species and 400 species of sapiens. Like humans, arachnids inhabit all areas of the globe, can swim, fly, dive, jump, run and hunt. Like humans they eat, drink, breath, burp, fart and sometimes even sit naked in the dark for very long periods of time and occasionally show up unexpectedly and when unwanted..

Yet, despite all of our excellence, we have yet to make a material as strong and light as spider silk, and to top it off, except for our politicians, most of us can't shoot silk from our asses.
http://www.ted.com/…/cheryl_hayashi_the_magnificence_of_spi…
Loren M. Lambert
© August 6, 2014

Comments....
Laura Wanlass Gudmundson:  eek. Me no like spiders. NO spell check required.  August 7, 2014 at 7:41pm

Russell Josephson:  And they catch & eat mosquitoes. +1 spiders.  August 7, 2014 at 9:32pm 

The Redwoods

The Redwoods--awesome and inspiring.  The Rangers-- professional, competent, and informative. Only ran into one grumpy one and he was cleaning bathrooms after people inhabit them like dumps.  Oregon-- friendly flies and friendly people. Denio Oregon--put a gas station there and make a million.

We logged 95% of the Redwoods and have 5% left. The paradox is that the more numerous we are the more value such national treasures have and the more open space we need. What is the optimum ratio of preservation and development? We need to resolve this now because it will not get easier as time goes by.
Loren M. Lambert
© August 2, 2014

Comments.....

Sierra Sophia: Well said, as always.  August 3, 2014 at 12:48am


Laura Wanlass: Gudmundson love the redwoods: majestic, commanding you notice their presence.  August 5, 2014 at 2:17am

Squat Pot and Monkey Bars

My wife learned from a book she's reading that it's not the food, air, water or exercise that makes some Asian people so healthy. It's because they squat doing "bowel eliminations." So she bought an apparatus so we all could experience the salubrious effects of having a squat pot. It's been here about 2 weeks. I haven't tried it yet. But I'll let you know.

I then come home and over our dining area, the table's gone and there is a jungle gym of sorts. "What the..." I say. "We'll I read this article that monkeys are so healthy because when they eat . . . ," she goes on to explain.

I'll let you know how healthy I am in a while.
If you drive by, look for my health promoting Orangutan bivouac in our Linden tree and waive and throw me a banana!
Loren M. Lambert
© February 2, 2015

Torture Is Wrong

It continues to astound me that we have done such a bad job in our educational system that there are those who still believe that torture can be justified as long as it is done by your "own government" and that your ends are just, and therefore that justifies the means.

It is also astounding that here are those who believe that we need to just bury unpleasant and outrageous behavior. The truth must ring out its clarion call.

Torture is wrong, illegal, immoral, and stupid. Those who engaged in it, sanctioned it, and permitted it, should be either prosecuted, brought into a truth and reconciliation process (this I favor), or pardoned.

Torture was wrong when the church did it, when the king did it, when the parent did it, when Hitler did it, when Vietnam did it, when South Africa apartheid did it, and when we did it. And we, US, did engage in torture.  Anything which is meant to overbear the human-will, through physical or mental deprivation or stress, is torture.

We are better than that. We need to renounce torture, proscribe it by law, and commit to never engage in it again.
Loren M. Lambert
© December 9, 2014



               Comments....
John Hinckley: Personally I find the current administration's Drone program far more immoral.  December 9, 2014 at 6:33pm


Loren M. Lambert:  I do not agree with sub rosa, “We-trust-you-to-keep-us-safe but don't-tell-us-what-you’re-doing drone programs”. It's like giving law enforcement the power to blow up houses if a bad guy is believed to be in it.  December 9, 2014 at 8:26pm


John Hinckley:  I'm a whole lot less than warm and fuzzy about the secret courts and the President making a kill list (especially one that includes US citizens, guess he missed 6th Amendment day in law school) every other Thursday afternoon except in months without an "R".  December 9, 2014 at 8:31pm


Loren M. Lambert:  I like wars like I my surgeries--with informed consent, only when absolutely necessary, with a specific objective, executed by professionals, and only done in highly controlled circumstances.  December 9, 2014 at 8:39pm


John Hinckley:  and may I add, free of politics; in other words, a united front .
December 9, 2014 at 8:58pm

Barbara JolleyMumm:  Jessica Lynch: I don't agree with torture either and yet when I read what this young lady went through and those that didn't survive "their interrogations" I wonder what method could be used to gain information to better protect "our interests" (when did a life become an interest). We are assuming that the mentality of these men is much like our, yet they prove over and over again that it isn't. So again I ask how should have they been interrogated.

No matter what "torture those men went through, most of those men have been returned home, to go back to terrorism. Obviously not broken and devastated men. Yes they were placed in extreme situations, their hearts pounded so painfully they feared dying, they didn't sleep, they didn't eat, they suffered indignation, yet they walk, probably without pain, they didn't die.

We place trust in those we elect, who later chair committees to approve or disapprove techniques used in extenuating circumstances, to gain information. Did they or did they not do their job, if they did why the question on torture. These are human beings holding these positions, if it is so abhorrent today why wasn't it 13 years ago.
   
As a citizen I do want transparency in my government, yet there are times that those we elect are doing what must be done and we need to know, as citizens, the general idea of what is being done but not a blow by blow accounting. If they feel strongly that it is wrong than don't approve it. If you do than don't later cry foul and play the blame game. Our abhorrence to "torture" is not going to save service men and women in the future from torture that ends in death.

What our actions today shows both our enmities and allies is a Nation who fears the opinion of others. So again what could be done differently.  December 9, 2014 at 9:02pm


Loren M. Lambert:  Dear Barbara, I think your position is horribly flawed. Unfortunately when you state something like, "We are assuming that the mentality of these men is much like our, yet they prove over and over again that it isn't," you are demonizing all of humanity and revealing the shallowness of your argument. "These men," and I'll add, "These women," exist in all societies.

Can you tell by looking at them? Some of "These men," and "These women," live among us, they are in our schools, in our businesses and in our armies and police forces. It is our moral fabric that holds us and them all in check.

Torture is despicable. It is everything contrary to the rule of law. A license to commit torture and mayhem against some is a license to commit it against all. It cannot be bounded. It defies restraint. The people who engage in it are criminals. I can tell you that in every conflict there are good people on both sides, there are true principles and loving instincts that people share in every country, state, county, province, city, village and home.

When we have to engage in conflict we have to remember that and we have to act in ways that allow us to reach out to them, not debase ourselves by becoming indistinguishable from our enemies, to become no better than they are. We should never act in ways that turn our own people into monsters You cannot torture another human being no matter how saintly you think you are and not be destroyed by it.  December 9, 2014 at 9:42pm


Loren Lambert:  http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/09/world/cia-torture-report-key-points.html?_r=0   December 9, 2014 at 10:17pm


Barbara JolleyMumm:   Not to ignore your "7 key points" but her committee, her report, where was she, what was she doing, that these "atrocities " we're being carried out under her watch. 13 years ago was it politically expedient to turn a blind eye, but today it isn't. I realize she is one person but her committee was the "over site" for the CIA, why was she not questioning everyday what was going on, why was there not a representative from her committee present. That is why I question the transparency why now and not then.  December 9, 2014 at 10:59pm


Loren M. Lambert:  I'm not going to debate motives with you. I don't give a damn under whose watch it is revealed, nor under whose it is committed. Torture cannot be justified any more than murder no matter who commits it. Every single excuse and rationalization you use was uttered by the Inquisition, the Nazis, Pol Pot, the KKK, etc and etc. If the Pope, the LDS Prophet, or the President of the US commits it even against those that "deserve it," it is still murder.

Once someone has been arrested for a crime or captured from battle no matter whether they are the guilty spawn of Satan himself or the innocent victim of circumstances caught up in a war they did not chose, we do not torture nor have summary executions in the dark recesses by some US citizen the system has turned into a sadistic madman and executioner.

I would bemoan the day that my son or daughter were to be killed fighting in a war, but I would die a million deaths to learn he or she were used to torture another human being. We follow the law. We follow the belief that all -- yes all -- have inalienable rights. Nor will I debate with you the morality of those who commit terrorism, torture and murder and whether or not they are deserving of the same. Of course they are. That is besides the point. What they deserve and what we do to them as civilized people have no connection whatsoever.

I have one standard, not a sliding scale of morality nor rationalization of who or how righteous my cause--torture is a hideous, despicable, base, animalistic, uncivilized, debasing, corrupting, corrosive, and an evil thing. It doesn't work. It merely begets more victims, ensnares the innocent and destroys the minds and hearts of all involved with it. I can testify with every fibre in my body that those who engaged in it will destroy their families and their future relationships.

I bet the God you worship would not engage in it. In fact he submitted to it rather than to become a party to it. He suffered all so that you could have the forbearance and the heart to find the humanity in all men and say, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do," and to then find a way to see the light in others who you hate so that you too can be a light and not a spiteful pit of our most base reactionary revenge.  December 10, 2014 at 9:16am

Loren M. Lambert:  You have no confidence in a government entrusted to regulate your schools, clean your water, etc. Why in a million years would you want to give government the power to decide who gets to be tortured? It is so astounding? I urge you to study every regime that has used torture as a sanctioned activity and all you will find is depravity and debauchery no matter how righteous the cause and how sanctified the people. We are not the chosen people of the earth that either God or our Most Perfect status has endowed us with the right to wear the ring of power and to not be corrupted by it. It is simply a ridiculous bankrupt argument.  December 10, 2014 at 12:02am

Loren M. Lambert:  Love, respect, dignity and restraint will always be a greater force than hatred and fear. I can tell you because I know what happens in conflicts that there are even those that fight in war that commit atrocities that would never do so unless they thought that it was the only way to save their own life and that of their families.

You live in an ISIS controlled area and the local militia tells you that they are going to rape your daughter and wife and slit their throats in front of their eyes but you can save them by strapping on a bomb and walking into a crowd of the enemy, you may do it. You are brainwashed your whole life that you're special and blah, blah, blah and you may do despicable things but here' s the ray of hope--correct principles, practiced by righteous people can and will win the war over time.  December 10, 2014 at 12:11am


Walter Platz: Why would you believe this report when they didn't interview a single person involved in the program? Those involved in the program say it's "a bunch of crap." The next time you're in court Loren, imagine your opponent giving his/her side and you are not allowed to present your side. That's the equivalent of this report. It was known, debated and I heard most of it a decade ago.

Those on the Congressional Committee briefed at the time, including Nancy Pelosi, didn't raise any objections to the enhanced interrogation and were only questioned about the techniques by one California Congresswoman Jane Harman. She only questioned but didn't object. The report now says they were lied too and information was withheld.

If it is so unpatriotic and horrible and now that the "truth" is known, why does President Obama keep those leaders in his administration involved in the program on and defends them? If it was torture, why did the Justice Department investigate the accusations and not file any charges against anyone?

Now imagine there's is a ticking time bomb with deadly, torturous, burning gas and your wife and children will die a slow, horrible, painful death if you don't find it. Would you water board the man who knows where it is? Would you be nice and sweet talk him into giving up the information when he's ready to give it up, probably after the bomb goes off? That was the decision the Bush Administration had to make. The killers weren't water boarded to convict them of a crime. They were water boarded to protect the rights and save the lives of those they planned to kill. Those involved in the program, who were not interviewed for this report, say it worked and they got information that thwarted attacks and led to the killing of Osama Bin Laden. That's their side of the story conveniently left out of this report. I also heard most of this a decade ago. December 11, 2014 at 10:22am


Loren M. Lambert Imagine that Gog and Magog were wrestling and Gog planted a nuclear weapon . . . . blah, blah, blah ---it's all bullshit, Walter, and this isn't about politics. Torture is not justified and it doesn't work. We did torture, that is not in doubt--if you were the one who had done it and you claim you can stand before the God you worship or before your family and children and claim you were acting morally, ethically, and in accordance to your principles then I think you are wrong and you need to re-evaluate your position because its indefensible.  December 13, 2014 at 9:07pm


Loren M. Lambert:  Water boarding is repulsive, wrong, cannot be tolerated.  It’s disgusting that you defend it.  December 13, 2014 at 9:07pm


Dean Probst:  Are there really any rules for "war"? The side that is proactive as opposed to reactive is most likely to have fewer casualties (not just pain and suffering, but actual loss of life), and likely goes on to win the battle. “In a fair fight, I would have killed you.” – Will Turner.  “Then that’s not much incentive for me to fight fair, then, is it?” – Capt. Jack Sparrow.  Lossing battles with “dignity” to the likes of al Qaeda just doesn’t do anything for my moral superiority.  December 11, 2014 at 5:27pm


Loren M. Lambert:  Really, Dean? Is that the subject? Are you serious? Read Unbroken and come watch the movie with me and then tell me what you think about the Japanese internment camps and compare them to ours at the same time (yes I know there were few Japanese prisoners due to their do or die training).

War, police work, the law does not give a license to abandon your humanity. But that is not the subject. I don't care how many sick bastards there are on earth that would engage or champion torture, it's wrong and always will be.  Those that sanctioned it like VP Dick Cheney should either be prosecuted, given amnesty after admitting his offenses, or pardoned.  December 11, 2014 at 7:53pm


Marc Niceler: This isn't really a war. A war insinuates that there are tanks and planes on the other side. This is just us torturing random people. I fail to see how this makes us safer or leads to less loss of life.  December 11, 2014 at 8:00pm


Dean Probst: How does waterboarding exceed the cruelty of shooting at people and dropping bombs on them? If torturing one enemy provides intel that prevents the killing of one US soldier, or even one innocent civilian, then so be it - especially if the one soldier is my son, or that civilian is family.

Various methods of torture were used in The Revolutionary War, The Civil War, and certainly in WWII to help over-throw Hitler. Loren, I understand your desire to make the world a nicer place, but it's not reality and never will be. If you believe otherwise, just come watch the next beheading on TV with me.

As for Marc's comment, where have you been the past 12 years? Times change! The battles of today (and of tomorrow) are not going to look like WWII, Korea, or Vietnam. Your enemies may not drive around in tanks and may have to hijack airplanes, but they'll kill you just the same.  December 11, 2014 at 8:47pm


Loren M. Lambert:   Dean, that's the difference between people like me (I'm nothing unique and there are thousands of us) and people like you (thank God you're in a minority). Because of people like me, we don't still live in a feudal state, in a Nazi police state or have the inquisition.

Your argument that there are criminals and murderous thugs in the world and therefore we have to torture is pure grade-school reasoning. I was in the military. I associated with soldiers that went to battle and killed people and I know many that still, in the chaos of war, did not mistreat civilians or captured enemy soldiers. I read Senator McCain's book and that of many others. They also substantiated this. You can chose how to act even in the most trying circumstances. I agree with Senator McCain and Nelson Mandela who both experienced grave torture and depravity but still don't say it justifies us acting the same.

People that think like you, Dean, and Dick Criminal Cheney, inspired by your irresponsible tripe, probably delight and get off in torturing other human beings. It is such an interesting cognitive disconnect--the government you don't trust--you do trust to decide who to torture--

I'm almost tempted to wish that you or someone close to you is innocently picked up by someone, some government, some police force that thinks you did something horrible and therefore decides to waterboard you. I've represented people that have been tortured. It's too bad that people like you have to experience such a situation so you might realize that your arguments are fatuous and ridiculous.

As for me, I don't want a government that tortures. Not only is it wrong per se, even if it were legal, I don't trust them to do it within the bounds of that law. It's just so sad too hear there are people in this modern age that think like you and ISIS.
December 11, 2014 at 10:30pm


Marc Niceler:  We don't live in a Nazi police state?  December 11, 2014 at 10:24pm


Loren M. Lambert:  Unfortunately, Marc, because of the right-wing tendencies in humans there are excesses even in the most civilized countries, and because of that there must always be citizens, grand juries, attorneys and judges,  who do not cow-tow to authority and indite, prosecute and convict when the facts and law call for it. But no, other than what are too frequent of occurrences, I don't think we live in a Nazi police state.  December 11, 2014 at 10:27pm

Dean Probst:  Loren, you say torture is wrong, illegal, immoral, and stupid. I agree with you. But, sad to say, it's a symptom of the world we live in. You see, chopping off people's heads, flying airplanes full of civilians into buildings, bombing subways, and assorted other daily acts of terrorism are also wrong, illegal, immoral, and stupid on an even larger scale. These acts of terror invariably affect larger numbers of much more innocent people.

If Interrogating enemy combatants under uncomfortable conditions helps stop bombings, kidnappings, etc..., then the end does in fact justify the means. You can't change the world by addressing "symptoms" anymore than you can cure cancer by giving morphine for the pain. In the bigger picture, stopping the bombings and the airplanes into buildings invariable will stop the need for the "torture" you abhor. That's how you change the world!  December 13, 2014 at 10:17am


Dean Probst:   On another note, a significantly larger number of convicts (those that necessitate the need for grand juries, attorneys and judges) associate themselves as liberals (left-wing).  December 13, 2014 at 10:38am


Loren M. Lambert It is interesting to me that most of the debates regarding the United States’ use of torture after September 11, 2001 revolve around whether or not the torture elicited any information that prevented catastrophes and saved lives.

It would be naive to say that no one under torture has ever revealed any information helpful to the torturers. In the same way it would be naïve to say that the brutal execution methods of prior centuries; i.e. crucifixion, flailing, burying alive, disembowelment, draw and quarter etc., never dissuaded those watching from engaging in the behavior that the executioner was trying to prevent. Of course some intelligence and other information may be sought and obtained through torture.

However, my opposition to torture is not based on whether or not actionable intelligence is gained. My opposition is based upon the following known and proven realities of torture:

1) It is not inflicted in the heat of battle when self defense is a justification, but by its very nature, after the combatant or enemy has been subdued and taken into custody and thereby is often inflicted because of the desire to exact revenge and it thereby deprives human beings of human rights and dignity.

2) As has been documented in many wars, and many other conflicts, it more often than not extracts false information. This occurs not only because in reality there are many who resist jeopardizing the lives of their compatriots even when subjected to torture, but because the victim has no information to divulge and must provide information to stop the torture. Can the torturer tell when his work is done? Many seasoned warriors of the United States military and many, many other armies have indicated that if you want good intelligence from your enemy, you make him or her your friend and you demonstrate that unlike the people and persons the enemies’ leaders painted us to be, we are a people that act with decency and compassion.

3) Few are the responsible and guilty parties in major conflicts. The real enemies in most conflicts are the few leaders who, to gain wealth, power and fame, manipulate religion, politics, and other human institutions to vilify other people, nations, or organizations. These leaders manipulate human beings that would otherwise not engage in murder and mayhem. Most caught up in battle are mere foot soldiers. While these foot soldiers may have committed horrendous acts of war, they and their extended relationships are as capable as their enemies of love, compassion, and learning that they are wrong and to then live peacefully. Torture of such individuals perpetuates the myths perpetrated by their malevolent leaders, makes them and all of their relations for ever our enemies, and leads to perpetual and unending war– just like the one currently engaged in.

4) Torture cannot be contained and made to be innocuous or civilized. If torture is meant to over bear the human will, it will always be escalated by those imposing it. Just as happened with the United States torturers, because, for example, if you start out with something as innocuous as making someone stand in a stress position, what do you do when the person does not cooperate in his or her own torture? Or is injured? You escalate the torture. This always happens. It's a vicious evil that feeds upon itself. It is inevitable.

5) Within every society are those who, when the strictures of morality and civilization breakdown, will engage in sadistic actions. When you give a government or an army or a police force the right to engage in torture, those who inevitably engage in it become quickly addicted and obsessed by it. They become sadists. And if they don’t become sadistic, they become just as damaged psychologically by the torture as the person they are victimizing. By sanctioning torture, you create within your own society the very villains you think you are fighting against.

6) In the fog of battle and chaos of war and during the imperfections of police activities, the innocent, the potential allies, the unwitting victims are mistaken for criminals, enemies and combatants. While certainly some may deserve harsh treatment, these innocents do not. And the due process that is the right of every human being to ensure culpability cannot occur with the efficiency that the gains through torture demand. It was so disturbing during 9/11 to hear people discussing courts being set up to determine whether or not somebody should be tortured. That is ridiculous. The very intelligent but flawed human beings I know that work within the legal system should never, ever be granted such power.

7) My heart, my head and every fiber of my being tells me that torture has no redeeming value.

8) Peace, civility and love should always guide our actions. While torture in the short run may gain some advantage, in the long run it destroys all who use it either in their personal relationships, in their communities, their nations, or in their wars.

9) I have a simple rule, I will not sanction any process to be imposed upon any human being that I wouldn’t think was fair if that person was innocent and that I wouldn’t want my own son and daughter to be engaged in either as a victim or as a perpetrator. I will not sanction any process that cannot be appropriately implemented by the lowliest uneducated, and untrained footsoldier in the battlefield. This is because I know what can go wrong will go wrong and I know that humans are fallible.
December 13, 2014 at 9:03pm  Edited

Loren M. Lambert:  So tell me Barbara JolleyMumm, how would you implement your system of torture as a last resort? And when it was not implemented as set forth, what should the consequences be.  December 13, 2014 at 9:29pm


Dean Probst: Justice Scalia refers to "extreme measures" being necessary for what Paul may consider untenable and absurd. However, the definition of absurd is completely subjective, and completely influenced from your current living situation and experiences. I hope for Loren's sake (and for mine) our country does not slip into the type of violence seen in The Middle East. No matter how absurd that may seem, it is a distinct possibility I prefer not to experience. But if we do experience more homeland insecurity, I will bet my gold that many of Loren's thousands wane in their convictions. It is so easy, and artificially valiant, to condemn the actions of others from the comfort of your living room lazyboy where your greatest threat is a slippery bathtub.  December 14, 2014 at 10:48am

Loren M. Lambert:   There are fools even in the highest echelons of Government Dean Probst. Does that surprise you, or do you think that only such insanity arises in foreign countries that are not as "awesome" as we are? And no, we often don't know what we are made of until tested by adversity but one thing is certain, history teaches us that those who decide before hand what their decisions and actions will be when tempted by circumstances are more likely to chose the right path. Moreover, leadership does make a difference and you wont have to remind me that you would not be the one I choose to show us the better path.

The fact remains that even as indicated in the torture report there were many who said "Hell no," and there have been many in history that have done the same whether in Nazi Germany or Abu Ghraib. Instead of dismissing it, looking the other way, minimizing it, rationalizing it, romanticizing it and some, even glamorizing it, we all should be shouting from the top of our lungs that torture stop here and everywhere, whether on the streets of New York, in the isolations rooms of the Utah State Prison or at the dark secret locations used by the CIA. We should not cower nor hesitate simply because we inhabit our comfortable lives here in our living rooms and may not have the gravitas of a John McCain. You are simply wrong and you're lack of moral leadership is appalling and while I hope to act with decency and restraint should I be involved any such future scenarios, your indifference is irresponsible, reckless and damning. I stand in judgment because everyone is called to do so.  December 14, 2014 at 3:04pm


Dean Probst: Thank you Loren. It is comforting to know that if I'm ever feeling "unjudged", I can always count on you.  December 14, 2014 at 7:50pm


Loren M. Lambert: Dean Probst, I really appreciate you as a person but I view your position on torture as no different than people claiming that sometimes we just need a good lynching or two because it’s just what has to be done. I again reiterate I think torture is intolerable, despicable and would not vote or support anyone who either advocates for it or is indifferent about its probity. So Dean, while I'd vote for you to be the Mosquito abatement czar, you won't get my vote if you run for President.  December 14, 2014 at 9:02pm


Paul Shepherd:  The absurdity (reducto ad absurdum) I mentioned was a fallacious form of argument in which arguments are reduced to their most absurd or extreme position in order to establish the argument- for example your argument that torture is necessary because we might have a situation in which a nuclear attack could be averted. It doesn't follow that we need to maintain torture as a tool to prevent nuclear attack. The suggestion we do is naive. The intelligence community has many more effective tools at its disposal than torture. The argument doesn't work.

Whether I am comfortable in my lazy boy or not still doesn't negate my moral obligation to oppose this assault on human decency. Either we stand for human rights or we don't. I am willing to die for my convictions as well. Suggesting otherwise undervalues the commitment or the courage necessary to stand up and oppose assaults to our humanity.  December 14, 2014 at 9:37pm


Loren M. Lambert: Paul, you are so eloquent. I'm not so polished. Thanks for stepping in.  December 14, 2014 at 11:32pm


Dean Probst: Loren, knowing who you have voted for President in the past, I take your lack of support as a compliment.  On another note:
Pew Research Center results - 51% approved CIA tactics, 28% did not.
Washington Post-ABC News results - 59% approve CIA tactics, 31% did not.
Since the definition of what constitutes torture and what does not is purely subjective, you have to go with the numbers. Meanwhile, I will start working on my WMD's (weapons of mosquito destruction).  December 16, 2014 at 5:32pm


Loren M. Lambert:  I suppose in Nazi Germany, the Germans approved of Hitler’s tactics otherwise they would not have been so widespread. Again, the fact that you and Dick Cheney approve of torturing another human being does not make it right. Torture is any scheme to overbear the human will. Moreover, we prosecuted Nazis and Japanese war criminals for water boarding. Ask any POW if water boarding was torture and they will tell you that it is. It's abhorrent and you are morally bankrupt for advocating for its use.  And how about letting someone die of hypothermia, or choking them to death, depriving them of medical care, leaving them in solitary confinement, putting them in stress position? It's abhorrent and you are morally bankrupt for advocating for its use.  December 17, 2014 at 12:06am


Paul Shepherd:   The same argument could have been used to justify the gassing and incineration of the Jewish population of Germany in the 40s. After all the legitimate government of Germany had identified them as a threat. That the majority support something because they are afraid does not not give it moral primacy. If more Germans had opposed the tactics of the Nazis and SS, there might not have been a holocaust.  December 17, 2014 at 9:14am


Loren M. Lambert:  This is the mentality, as expressed by Dean, that most of our neighbor government, secret services, police and armies to the south, have had, whether be countries, any person, or groups, that was  the left or the right or simply those just wanting to fight injustice and corruption, viewed as a threat and could be tortured, eliminated and disappeared.  And enough of their populations went along, because they had the same mentality, so it has persisted. As a result; in Venezuela, Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Guatemala etc. (with possibly Costa Rica being the only exception), those countries have had bloody, repressive, stagnant, reprehensible governments, economies, and social institutions. That appears to be where we are headed.  December 17, 2014 at 10:52am


Dean Probst:  Loren, you say "Torture cannot be justified any more than murder..." Yet, the only thing that distinguishes murder from killing in self-defense is how the public defines it. Society has decided it is reasonable and acceptible to kill another human being to preserve the life of one more innocent. Do you see the trend? I would prefer to ask any POW if they prefer waterboarding to having their head cut off. The only POW I have known has long since passed away, but I have the feeling he would gladly accept water boarding as opposed to hearing of 140 school children being killed.  December 17, 2014 at 10:53am


Loren M. Lambert: @Dean, Degrees of depravity are still just that, depravity. In reality, I have spoken with POWs, I have read their books, and at times they would have invited death rather than endure the torture. Of course there is a continuum of torture techniques from minimal physical and/or psychological impact, all the way to death.

There is nothing discordant about an agreement that “people flying airplanes into buildings and those killing 140 school children” should be fought and brought to justice, vs. asserting that once a suspected/alleged POW, enemy combatant, or criminal is arrested and brought into captivity, not be tortured, but be processed according to the rule of law.  That is the only way to ensure that we, the US and humanity, win over the long run.

I get it, you're an eye for an eye guy with no exceptions and with no proof--it's enough that someone suspects or someone identifies you as a guilty party--then torture and death are justified. That is the world in many areas of the middle east. I don't want that world. We don't need to debase us to their level--that is what makes us free.
December 17, 2014 at 11:09am


Loren M. Lambert: There will always be those that want mob/vigilante/lynching justice--or to fly airplanes into buildings because of some real or imagined wrong. We should not be the angry mob.  December 17, 2014 at 11:11am


Dean Probst:   Loren, you are wong on one assumption - I do require some level of proof. Being captured as a volunteer enemy fighter in battle is that proof. Logically, and legally, you can't volunarily go to war carrying a gun and claim ignorance, or innocence. The rule of law does not always require long drawn out court battles in front of judge and jury before taking action.

There are countless examples in our legal system where "extreme measures" are acceptible and prudent when loss of life is imminent, or public safety is at risk. As is the case with most everything, certainly these measures can be misused and abused. But the potential for abuse in no way invalidates their potential worth. If we accepted that premise, then all medicinal drugs would be outlawed.

I'm not a sadist that believes others should be tortured just for the sake of causing pain and humiliation, and I'm certainly not in support of mob justice or government sackings (again, please be relevant). But yes, I feel strongly that extreme interrogations do have their place in achieving peace and winning in the long run. One consistency in human history is that good endings have always required some less than humane means. I'm a realist, not an idealist.   December 17, 2014 at 12:04pm


Loren M. Lambert:  Dean, the problem is I think you are naïve regarding how power is exerted and exercised. If you think everyone that dons a uniform does so voluntarily you are sorely mistaken. That is why most militaries rightfully or wrongfully so have strict laws of conscription, desertion, and absence without leave. If you can be shot and tortured for leaving a religion, country, military, or a group, then it cannot be completely voluntary.

So let's get to the brass tacks Mr. Propst, what tactics would you authorize, under what circumstances, and who gets to employ them?  December 17, 2014 at 2:34pm


Loren M. Lambert:  Furthermore if you think everyone that fights under orders and the leadership of others is beyond recall--meaning, incapable of understanding the depravity or erroneous ways of their leadership, you are also wrong. There's a big difference between a mentally deprived individual who uses power illicitly or is criminally pathological, and those that are caught up in battles between warring factions. In either case, true principles and universal ideals can and will prevail over deranged belief systems used to justify tyranny.  December 17, 2014 at 2:38pm


Dean Probst: My different perspective does not make me naive. Since it is reported most members of Al Qaeda and ISIS are not natives of Afghanistan or Iraq, I am hard pressed to believe they are fighting against their will. Since you asked, I am at peace letting the CIA do their job in gathering intelligence. If we are going to fight a war and do so with minimal collateral damage, we need to obtain as much intelligence as possible in order to give American soldiers the best possibility for success. Every POW should be catalogued and it understood where they fit in the chain of command. Where there is probable cause that a POW does possess pertinent information, I am still at peace if they are made uncomfortable in an attempt to obtain that information.

I'm referring to interrogation, not humiliation as was displayed at Abu Ghraid. As a check and balance, information and situations should be reported regularly to superiors at all levels - up to and including the President. Society has recognized that the most heinous of acts, killing a person, can be necessary and acceptable when innocent life and public safety are at risk. Applying reason and logic, methods such as water boarding a person can also be necessary and acceptable. Terrorism is the ultimate stage for loss of innocent life, and war the ultimate risk of public safety. Preventing terrorism by extremists, and fighting a war against same requires extreme measures.  December 17, 2014 at 10:12pm


Loren M. Lambert: That's pretty sad, Dean.  December 17, 2014 at 11:49pm


Dean Probst: Yes Loren, it is a sad situation when we need to do physical battle against people that believe their definition of morality is superior and thus feel the need to stand in judgement of others - taking the next step beyond shouting on the rooftops to using coercion to get others to think, act, and live "worthily". That mentality of superiority is truly sad, and accounts for a lot of the hatred in this world.

You say you let peace, civility, and love guide your actions. Those are noble values right up there with "trustworthy, loyal, helpful,...". The problem with your values is that reality transforms each into a paradox. Obtaining peace frequently requires drastic actions that independently would be defined as unpeaceful, maintaining civility often requires acts that independently are uncivilized, and as every parent knows, loving others often requires making decisions that independently seem counter. I accept that. I'm a realist that realizes the lack of control we have over others and our environment requires us to often act contrary to our values in order to achieve our values. If that makes you feel sad, "oh well...".

History (reality) has taught us that peaceful solutions to confict are few and far between, and I don't see that changing in my lifetime. All I can use to defend how much unrest and uncivility, and even how much water boarding, I am willing to accept is to step back and envision if we will eventually be at a better place than we currently are at today. I hope so, but more importantly, I believe so.

Certainly, there will be abuses any time one person sits in a position of authority of another. This is true whether we are talking about wardens abusing prisoners, police abusing suspects, and even bosses abusing their employees. However, for that better place to ever be realized, I need to trust in others; and, I anticipate abuses will be the exception and not the rule.  December 18, 2014 at 1:09pm

Loren M. Lambert:  No, it's sad there are those that think we need to debase ourselves to the level of those we decry as immoral and thereby succumb to the same immorality.  December 18, 2014 at 4:37pm

Dean Probst: Where do individual rights come from? Oh, that's right, they are granted by society, the collective, the "many". Individual rights do not exist without consideration of the "greater good". Your rights granted by The Constitution were defined by the "many", and as we have seen, can surely be changed by the "many". One day, you have the right to drink alcohol, the next you don't because society changed it's mind. One day you are sitting home free to do as you please, the next day you are drafted into service to protect the greater good.

If you truly believe your individual rights trump the needs of society, perhaps you should go live on an island. As the logical Mr. Spock said, “the needs of the many will always outweigh the needs of the few.”, and always take precedence over the needs and rights of the individual.

If society should fall, then your rights perish along with it. If we should find ourselves at war with Russia, do you really think losing the war with our morals intact serves a greater good? Go ahead and explain that one...  December 18, 2014 at 8:27pm

Loren M. Lambert:  Winning a war and torturing the people you are fighting are not the same thing.  December 18, 2014 at 9:30pm


Dean Probst: Loren, you are right. Winning a war and using torture to obtain intelligence from the people we are fighting are not the same thing. If we truly are not willing to go to battle with the same terribleness as our enemy, then we may as well wave the white flag now and surrender the freedoms and rights we so dearly cherish. The enemies we are facing today, and those we will likely face in the near future have a voracity for evil unlike anything we have ever experienced, and that evil is coming home. Water boarding is going to look like a walk in the park.  December 19, 2014 at 12:00am

Loren M. Lambert: That's bullshit Dean. Destroying the threat, human and economical have no connection to torturing or subjugating them after they are conquered. The two have nothing to do with each other. Torture rarely works and 90% of the time the torturers simply chase ghosts and misinformation, and then they excalate the torture. Good night.  December 19, 2014 at 12:17am

Mia Speaks The Language of Tyrants

Dear Utahns,
It is the trick of tyrants to create an enemy to rally the fearful against- as opposed to having a vision to inspire and lead a people to a better future. While Mia tells you what to fear, she has no vision on how to lead. Don't run with Mia. Run away and towards a brighter future. Vote for Doug Owens for a brighter tomorrow.  Loren M. Lambert
© November 1, 2014

     Comments....
Randall Adams:  "Tuesday night after rising GOP star Mia Love brought down the house with her inspiring convention speech, the stomach-turning Left labeled the black conservative a “token” and an “Aunt Tom.”  Meanwhile, revoltingly racist, woman-hating Wikipedia vandals were hard at work updating her entry with disgusting slurs like “House Nigger” and “dirty, worthless whore who needs instant payday loans.” The page called her a “total sell-out to the Right Wing Hate machine and the greedy bigots who control the GOP.”  Yup Loren, Mia Love knows the "The Language of Tyrants" well!  November 2, 2014 at 7:23pm

Loren M. Lambert: @Randall I've listened to her a number of times and I've talked to many about her and, I nor they, have said such a thing. I disagree with her positions on many issues and it is apparent that beyond what appears to be memorized sound bites, there is no intellectual depth to her own opinions nor understanding of the issues.  November 2, 2014 at 7:25pm

Randall Adams And that makes her a "Tyrant" ??? To answer your question Chris, you, Loren and many who read this thread might want to start with a mirror.............  November 2, 2014 at 8:05pm

Chris Adler I never said any of those things, so a mirror would be pointless, Randall. Please don't make baseless accusations, complete with "quotes" when you're just making them up. Of course some people use derogatory words against others. It happens regardless of political ideology. I don't use them. Don't try and brand a whole group with your accusations either because that's completely dishonest.  November 2, 2014 at 7:32pm

Randall Adams: Take an English class Chris, quotes mean that someone else made those statements. But we agree!!! For you "a mirror would be pointless."
You stated proudly that "some people use derogatory words against others." Try and focus for a moment at the statement that started this exchange..........
"Mia Speaks The Language of Tyrants.  Dear Utahns  It is the trick of tyrants to create an enemy to rally the fearful against as opposed to having a vision to inspire and lead a people to a better future. While Mia tells you what to fear she has no vision on how to lead"  November 2, 2014 at 7:44pm

Loren M. Lambert:  Randall, relax man, she's simply wrong. I don't like tyrants nor politicians who rally their base by appealing to their fears- democrats or republicans or others. I didn't say she was tyrant. I said she was borrowing a tactic from their playbook. As do people selling security systems, insurance, etc. And frankly, I'm just toying with you. Yet she still has no intellectual depth nor correct stand on the issues, and she is more about what she is against then what she is for.  That’s my opinion based on listening to her. And I support Doug Owens. Go Doug, hope he wins but if he doesn't, what can I say, this is Utah.  November 2, 2014 at 8:06pm

Chris Adler:   Randall, you're a dishonest fellow. Not interested in discussing this with you any longer.  November 2, 2014 at 8:16pm


Dean Probst: This coming from a guy who claimed Obama was one of the most intelligent men in politics?  November 2, 2014 at 10:17pm

Loren M. Lambert: If you are referring to me, Dean, I still feel that despite my disagreements with him, despite the unfair attacks against him, despite his imperfections, despite his inability to be the God people expected him to be who voted for him, despite that congress has done everything to destroy him; he has met my expectations, and I stand behind him as having accomplished significant advances for the American people.  November 2, 2014 at 10:43pm

Loren M. Lambert:  @Randall, at your suggestion, I went and stood before a mirror. Unfortuantely, all I saw was an imperfect, fallable yet earnest person staring me back in the face who is fairly law abiding, hard working, has met or worked with and appreciated every person commenting to this thread and like them all.  I just assert the right to speak passionately about the public figures who run for office and to support who I believe is the best candidate, Doug Owens.  Go Doug!  Let's hope Utah does the right thing despite my well meaning but still nevertheless wrong-on-this-choice fellow Uthans. Oh, yes, and at times I have been a bit of a tyrant in small ways to some of the people in my life, but I have usually recognized it, apologized, and moved on. How bout you Randall Adams? How are you coming on perfection?  November 2, 2014 at 10:57pm

D. Michael Martindale: You can tell how effective Mia Love will be by the level of vitriol the left spews against her. They're afraid of her.
November 3, 2014 at 12:56am

Ron NeislerL: Based on that criteria, Obama must be the greatest President of all times. November 3, 2014 at 5:47am

D. Michael Martindale: The only problem, Ron, is what you're calling "vitriol" against Obama is legitimate criticism. What is being uttered against Love is genuine vitriol. The difference is legitimate criticism has meaningful intent to it, where the vitriol is just full of nastiness like "the language of tyrants."
November 3, 2014 at 8:08am

Walter Platz: I haven't seen any discussion of the issues. It started with generalized vitriol toward and no facts about Mia Love and it continues. Liberals have no tactics other than driving hatred for conservatives of all colors. There are no incumbents running in this race.
  If you are voting against the incumbent party for this seat, you will vote Republican. Jim Matheson was the incumbent. He's not running. It was President Obama who said his policies, liberal policies, are on the ballot and his Democrat cronies will support him. They just can't say it, he says, until after the election.
  If you like Obamacare, the VA run lack-of-healthcare system, the IRS silencing political opponents, apologists for the greatness of America, amnesty for illegal immigrants, the EPA driving businesses out of business, government battling against the Keystone pipeline, or just the general incompetence of big government, then I'd vote Democrat.
  It's not just President Obama and Harry Reid either. Big liberal government fails every time it's tried, But liberals think there is another Messiah coming that will make it work the next time. It fails again and again and another Messiah is on the way again and again. Liberal voters keep believing big government will solve their problems and they are bribed off of the economic ladder and continue living in poverty. And the establishment Republicans keep saying they want to work with those liberals and they do, always compromising to increase taxes, make government bigger and steal more money from the real problem solvers, the producers, the makers, and the creators.
  No one in government has all of the answers or even knows the questions. But one person, one business knows of one problem and solves that one problem and makes our lives better one product or service at a time. I know my problems. Let me figure out how to solve them. I do a much better job of that than anyone in Washington or anywhere else in government. I just want government to stop making things worse, enforce the laws they swore to uphold, and stop trying to run my life with more laws and more taxes.  November 3, 2014 at 2:23pm

Loren M. Lambert D. Micheal wrote me: "I see you've blokced me from responding on the Mia Love thread. Put your last potshot at me in and then silence me. Not very sporting of you.  I would have posted: Is it vitriol? Or is it frustration at the vitriol of others?" I responded, “That's weird. I didn't block you. Try again. Let me see what happened. No, D. Michael, I don't care and I don't take it personally. I think you are a very smart person with very outspoken and sometimes shrill opinions.
November 3, 2014 at 3:26pm

Loren M. Lambert Walter Platz, please quote me and then explain how it "drives hatred?" I don't and didn't intend to set forth all of her substantive comments and won't try to persuade you substantively.  It wouldn't do any good in this forum. I've just noticed Mia talks a lot about what she is against not what she would do differently. If you believe otherwise, that's fine. I just challenge all to listen to her and decide for yourself.  November 3, 2014 at 3:30pm

Loren M. Lambert: @Walter, ps I don't hate you man. Let's go pretend to smoke a doobie sometime together? Cool? (Inside joke).  November 3, 2014 at 3:31pm

Loren M. Lambert:  Doug Owens, the right choice for conservative Utahns.
November 3, 2014 at 3:56pm

D. Michael Martindale:  Apparently it did post it above. At least I see it now. Don't know why it said it was unable to post at the time.  November 3, 2014 at 5:16pm

Walter Platz: "Tyrant" drives hatred. I don't know any lovable tyrants. Creating an "enemy to rally the fearful" drives hatred. "Create" is the real hateful word, implying she made it up. Don't drive hatred. Instead of saying Mia Love "created" imaginary tyrants and enemies, tell me exactly what she said that makes you believe that she did and argue against it. I'm willing to listen if you tell me what she said that makes you believe she has unjustly created some tyrant and enemy. Using "tyrant" and "creating an enemy" is creating hatred towards her right out of the 60 year old Democrat playbook. It might still work if she wasn't a successful black woman. Then, if you will, defend the actions of the IRS who silenced the opposition in the last election denying them the right to participate by delaying their tax exempt status. That is an admitted and proven fact. And everyone in the country should be against that and the party that created it. That is a real enemy and it should be feared. If you can't defend the actions, don't project hatred on the opposition pretending they have created some nonexistent enemy. Tell me, what does Doug Owens stand for? Is he for Obamacare? Is he for amnesty? Is he for higher taxes? Is he for bigger government? Those are Obama policies. The President said his policies are on the ballot. I haven't seen anything Owens is for on these positions. All I hear from Democrats is that conservatives hate women and minorities and will take their rights away. As I understand Mia Love's positions, she stands for lower taxes and smaller government and that's what I'm for. She doesn't have to be for anything else as far as I'm concerned. Tell me what she's against that you or Owens are for and afraid of. I don't want arrogant candidates who tell me they have all of the answers and all it takes is another big government program and more money. I am not so naive as to believe Mia Love will deliver, but better to have someone who is for smaller government and lower taxes than someone who is against it. I'm not voting for her. I don't live in her district. I just get tired of the hate against conservatives.  November 3, 2014 at 6:16pm

Marc Niceler:   I am pretty sure its because she is black. Loren has lots of conservative friends as can be seen on this thread.  November 3, 2014 at 8:14pm

Dean Probst:   Let the tyranny begin... I gladly voted for Mia! I watched the debates, I listened to each present their views, then I watched Doug run commercials that misrepresented Mia's positions. I would rather have a tyrant in office than a politician willing to say anything to get elected. At least I know what to expect...  November 5, 2014 at 7:19am

Loren M. Lambert:   We all hear and see what we want. It’s not hard to be an ideologue. I'm sure if Mia shuts her mouth by not speaking off script and votes the party line, she'll please Utahns.  November 5, 2014 at 9:10am

Keep Utah clean, smart, resourceful, resilient, compassionate and lean.

Vote Democratic and especially for Doug Owens. While Mia Love may talk the talk, that is all she does.  She does not walk the walk nor think and talk.  She only says what she thinks won't make you balk.
Loren M. Lambert
© October 22, 2014

Comments....
Jacob Dean:
The only democrat I can bring myself to vote for is Patrice Arent for Utah House of Reps.  October 23, 2014 at 8:20am

Loren M. Lambert: Say it isn't so Jake. Who would have thought?
October 23, 2014 at 9:25am

Loren M. Lambert: Yes, there are many sharper tools in the Republican tool shed than Mia, but let's face, intelligence scares away the Republican base.
October 23, 2014 at 9:27am

Michael Flynn: Seems to me that the Dems rely on the most uninformed voter base in the history of the US. Just sayin'.  October 23, 2014 at 9:37am

Loren M. Lambert: Yeah, but Michael you are just too kind and well educated and think all the Rs are like you but lets face it, you're too successful so you don't get out enough to know the stark truth.  October 23, 2014 at 11:31am

Mark Gammell: With your eye on Detroit as your model Democratic City, Vote Democratic, Utah....because there is not a problem that shouldn't be made worse by bigger, more intrusive government.  October 23, 2014 at 1:16pm

Loren M. Lambert: Them there were Detroit Dems, Mark--not even close to Utah Dems. Yet we've got "sell yer soul" Repubs in the like of Shurtleff and Swallow who have taken Capitalism Politics a little too far. We need ta kick 'em all out. Get back to basics.  October 23, 2014 at 2:53pm

Mark Gammell: My comment is not a refute, but a plea. Please tell us what concrete principles any democrat's platform is based on. I don't know anything about Owens or Mia, and for all I know, Owens may be the most qualified, but principles...or lack thereof....will effect every thing a politician does.  October 23, 2014 at 4:57pm

Loren M. Lambert: Mark, political parties are no religions, nor species. You seem to indicate that Repubs are a separate species that unfailingly adhere to a particular religion--at least it sounds that way. There is enough glamour, glitz, perfidy, and prurience to go around--but I'm glad you've figured it out and you are with the mostly righteous and mostly correct--Me. I'll take my chances with the humble and the meek.
October 23, 2014 at 7:26pm

Mark Gammell:   Loren, you seem to suggest that if one holds to any set of principles.....THAT is religion and therefore does not belong in the public discourse. How about principles of sound government....principles of freedom....principles of justice. You make it sound as if you believe that anything other than total shooting from the hip by the politicians, or political expediency is somehow elitist and NOT anything that the meek and humble would care about.  October 23, 2014 at 8:23pm

Loren M. Lambert: It just seems like a matter of religion for you.  Meaning most religions think they have the corner on the market of all truth, and they are the only ones capable of implementing that truth. Anyway go Democrats and go progress! Go freedom, go liberty, and go Obama Health Care!!!!!!  October 23, 2014 at 9:10pm

Mark Gammell: Go Democrats...Go Progressing toward Totalitarianism.....Go freedom of the ruling elite to extort any amount of tax from the masses to fund their failed Socialist / Collectivist policies....go liberty of the government to make all your decisions for you about religion and healthcare....go Democrats in bringing Orwell's 1984 into reality...go Democrats in making life and death decisions about the unborn and Elderly.
October 23, 2014 at 9:46pm

Loren M. Lambert: Yes, Go Democrats.  October 23, 2014 at 9:52pm

Michael Flynn:  Loren. Mark G. clearly topped you in this discourse. Your comment "Yes, Go Democrats" feels like you had no response to his retort on your post. Mark G. Winner, winner chicken dinner.  October 24, 2014 at 8:04am

Paul Shepherd: Vote for people who represent and lead with honesty and integrity. Those people will not blindly adhere to party group-think nor pander to special interests. Multiple points of view are a good thing in a democratic republic. One party rule is not.  October 24, 2014 at 12:10pm

Loren M. Lambert:  Still not convinced. I'm praying for a miracle.  A Democratic sweep in Utah. It's as possible as BYU beating Boise.  October 24, 2014 at 9:44pm

Loren M. Lambert:  @Paul, you're way to rational.  How bout some good ol' American emoting?  October 24, 2014 at 10:09pm

Loren M. Lambert:  @Michael--I have to let Mark win, otherwise I don't get any sleep. October 24, 2014 at 10:10pm

Paul Mize:  emoting is what got us in this mess (Clinton the emoter, some guy with GREEK columns in Denver)……I know an actor who could emote that was a pretty dang good President…..thank goodness he wasn't a Democrat…..(not a Democrat in sheep's clothing espousing Libertarian views……but I saw through the ruse) and now his true colors have posted on his page……still like him though…..God Bless Ronald Reagan
October 24, 2014 at 10:20pm

Loren M. Lambert:  It's never too late for a little emoting.
October 24, 2014 at 11:36pm

The Most Unlikely of Likelihoods--Gay Marriage Is A Reality In Utah

Scotus (Supreme Court of the United States) has mutely roared.

Gay marriage is officially legal in Utah for the time being and into near the future.
To my gay friends a hearty congratulations. I welcome you into the community of the married. You can now participate in all of its responsibilities and rights.

To my friends who oppose this development; your marriages and that of others will continue to be as strong as you make them and life will go on without any derangement or diminution due to this societal adjustment. The only thing you may soon discover is the horrors that concerned you will not materialize and the benefits that have been touted by gay marriage proponents will be realized.

Lastly, there will always be, as there always has been, bad examples of the ideals of marriage by those of any orientation, so please don't hold them out as illustrative of all who strive to live exemplary lives.
Loren M. Lambert© October 6, 2014

Salute To My Brother

He liked to tease. I liked to let it get under the skin of my too sensitive soul. We fought the hardest. He’d start laughing, I'd get the upper hand.

I was too young to understand what the effect of several tumbles off a roof and concussions could have on a young man's brain. Among others, he had to endure the merciless hazing of the Bishop and Stake Presidents' sons. I'm embarrassed to say that while I didn't condone it, I didn't stick up for him.  In fact I teased him myself at times. I was still in open bro on bro mutual combat mood. Maybe it can be understood why he soured on the idea of the LDS religion and hung out with the alleged bad boys. It took me years to realize the bad boys weren't so bad and the good boys weren't so good despite their sectarian status, clean faces and brylcreem hair.

The Marines matured him, and then both hardened him and repelled him. I loved and honored the Camp Pendleton shirt he gave me from boot camp.  Afterwards, he then had to overcome the drinking and find a new life.

Our last fight wised us both up with mutual apologies. We finally realized the foolishness of our youth. It brought a peace between brothers that we never had found before. God bless hard fists, maturity, the Marines, and the sanctity of a sincere apology.

He's had to work hard his whole life. Now his still strong, but quickly aging body, has been brought up against his greatest challenge--a brain tumor.
Let it not be cancer.

I pray for you my brother, and your surgeon. Be strong and let the Marine in you win another battle!

Until the morning.
Loren M. Lambert
© September 8, 2014

Comments....
Jen Ottens:  Sometimes it takes decades of experience for us to finally learn what is actually important and have guts enough to say we are sorry for our part in it. We will surely pray for your brother's quick and complete recovery.  September 8, 2014 at 11:32pm

Rosalinda Burton:  A wonderful and fitting salute, Loren. I will add my prayer too.  September 9, 2014 at 8:50am

Laurie Jan Bray:  Your story is beautifully told and universal . I see this next chapter full of peace.
September 9, 2014 at 9:47am

Lynn Nichols:  Wishing you and your brother peace and a positive outcome.
September 9, 2014 at 7:57pm

Loren M. Lambert:  Thank you all for your blessings and prayers. My brother returned from surgery.  The surgeon said the procedure went well but, although it is not absolute, it is most likely cancer.  September 9, 2014 at 8:27pm

Ripping The Soul

I have a writing group that meets and we go over each others screenplays and provide feedback. It is so insightful.  I had written, what I thought was a pretty good script, which was ripped to shreds.

And they were right to do so. I realize now it suffers from all the flaws they mentioned.

Sometimes I wish I had a group of close associate I could bare my soul too and be brave enough to weather the critique. It would take them hours.  It would be crushing.

Yet, it's funny how critiques of the sometimes inconsequential (such as a screenplay) can seem so equally punishing. I can only imagine the hurt and betrayal I'd feel were it the book of my life.

Who do you bear your soul to? God? A spouse? Do we bare our souls to God, the wind, or the wall because we know the censure will never be as brutal as it needs to be? And if to a spouse, how many of us feel they can be trusted with such a weighty task as to provide us flowing and unfettered insight into our flaws? Will it leave us too battered and bruised to recover, or will it be a mere sprinkling of holy water meant only to flatter for fear of our lack of humility.

And if I, if we, have need to have the flaws we cannot recognize or are too self inflated to perceive of the inconsequential, how much more are we in need of that same scrutiny of our own souls? Who then and how? And where would I find the humility and the resilience to listen and to heal?
Loren M. Lambert
© August 26, 2014

Comments.....

Julie Stanton:  Glick Eloquently said, Mitch. Many of us are too fragile of heart to bare our souls to more than just the wind or the wall. To have such a thing as a screenplay, painting, poem or project critiqued and scrutinized is hard enough. While the sting is there if our creation is ripped apart, it is merely a part of the sum of our being. But to bare our soul? Our whole life? While the need may be there for us to be critiqued and it necessary for us to grow and flourish, can we recognize the constructive criticism and remember that there are good points that still stand? Or will the blow to our soul be more than we can bear as we recall moments in our lives where we were unjustly ripped just to satisfy someone else's agenda? And who could we trust with such a task that would remain unscathed by our hurt, regardless of the love and care with which they try to bestow on us as they relate to us our weaknesses and our strengths?  It has taken me years to trust myself with looking in the mirror. While I know the image I see is distorted, I have finally been able to believe in myself and my abilities. Perhaps I, perhaps all of us can rise above any injustices we had bestowed upon us by parents or former partners and realize that possibly much of what we heard from them were based on flaws within themselves and not us. As for me, I'm not courageous enough to allow anyone to scrutinize my soul-my very being. I'll just continue talking to the wind.  August 26, 2014 at 5:07am

Pamela Almoustine Magee Bradford:  It was really interesting to read this.... I understand completely what it is like to experience what you experienced. But here is the thing...sometimes when you have a trusted group that you know love you and value you for who you are and what you can do....and have seen what you can do, who have caught a glimpse of your future best of in the excellence of your now they will not settle, or allow you to settle, for less than. The script like your future holds a promise of greatness even if you have to slog through criticism and restarts to get to it. Be brave, be bold, be Loren and you will do fine (so will that script).
August 26, 2014 at 8:59am

Mark Gollaher:  I think we sometimes want only cheerleaders from those close to us and that pressure they feel to be "on your side" can make them self edit any constructive criticism. When you a person loves you and you've also based the relationship on honesty, then a real and truly loving exploration of the faults of both parties is possible--but we have to be really willing to objective.
August 26, 2014 at 1:19pm

Loren M. Lambert: Great insight everyone. Yet, I feel like soul bearing would be beneficial in the right setting. And as a writer, I know if I would have started sooner in understanding I wasn't Twain, Dickens, London, or any of my other writing heros--I need the guidance. I need more humility. And I'll say what we say at the end of the dance class I'm taking, "I thank the earth for supporting me, the sky for inspiring me, my body for serving me and those that share the dance for supporting me."
August 27, 2014 at 11:23pm